Interview with Joe Cardwell

              CHARM Oral History Project Interviewee: Dr. Joe Cardwell Interviewer: Sara Morris Location: Mississippi State University July 30, 2002 Sarah Morris: Joe Cardwell: Here we go. Can you tell me a little bit about your life before you came to Mississippi State? A little bit about my life before I came to Mississippi State? Hum, well, I don't know where to start. I was borned and raised in Texas. And, I grew up out in Wilbarger County, Texas on a cotton farm. And, went to school I went to Odell High School, which was about ... five miles from home. And, then growing up on the farm I did most of the farm labor, farm work. I guess my first experience as a professor or teacher was my first student, which was a young black boy, and he and I were chopping cotton in a cotton field and Jabo did not know his multiplication tables. So, I taught him that, and several things, but that was my first student as a teacher. And, at that time, I pretty well figured that I was going to be a teacher of some type. And, from there I did finish the high school there at Odell. At that time, you may or may not remember, that this was the prewar years, but we were getting ready for war. I thought that what I aught to do would be was go to the CCC camp and serve and to make money to help my mother and daddy on the farm. Well, my neighbor, by the name of John Carmichael, came over, well, daddy had talked to him, and he came over. I was on the tractor and he came over to me, and I stopped the tractor, and he said Joe get your "blank off of that tractor, we [laughs] are going to " see John Carmichael. Now, John Carmichael was a representative that came over and talked to me. So, we went over to see this politician, and he got me a job at Texas Tech University to go to school. So, that was where ... nd that's the reason that I did start to I .a college. So, I finished Texas Tech with a BS and MS degree. And, then I went to North Carolina State for the PhD, and some of that is on here. That part I guess is history. Well, what made you become interested in the dairy and food science part? Because my first job was to working in the creamery. ...

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At Texas Tech? At Texas Tech yeah. And, when I went to school, I also worked as a telephone operator at night in the dormitory. And, I served as a waiter for the football team. I probably weighed 120 pounds soaking wet. Not very large. But, those football players were the biggest fellows that I had ever seen. And, they sure ate a lot too. And they did, and they wanted that food on time when they got ready. They wanted seconds; I made it my responsibility to be there to get them a second serving. Did the football team do well under your good feeding? (laughs) Yes. I take credit for Tech having a good football team that year. There are a lot of Texans that think that is pretty important. It is. So, then you went to North Carolina State, and you studied dairy products there? Yes. Well, from Texas Tech, I got my BS and MS out at Lubbock at Tech in the dairy manufacturing. That is the processing of milk and milk products. Then I went to North Carolina State for a PhD. Can you tell me why you came to Mississippi State? Why I came to Mississippi ? ... Cause you needed a job, right? (laughs) Yeah, I think that is the bottom line. There was an opening; there was an opportunity for me. My professor out at NC State had made contact, or hers had made contact with the people at NC State if they knew anyone that might be graduating and or getting ready for a job. Through that contact then, I was and I had ... met Prof Herzer, so there was an opportunity, and he did offer a job. So, there was a job opportunity at Mississippi State. That being very important at that particular time because I had a wife and a son to support. Anyway, so I came to Mississippi State

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because of the opportunity. Well, actually to work in the area of dairy processing. SM: JC: SM: JC: SM: JC: What were your duties when you first got to Mississippi State? It was teaching and research, and production. At that point you were part of the Dairy Science department? It was not yet Food Science and Technology? That is true. That is true. We called it Dairy Manufacturing, but it was the processing of milk and milk products. When did Food Science and Technology become its own department? Gosh, I don't remember the date. But, we did develop that over the years, but it was several years before it became and I don't ... remember the exact date on that sorry about that. Oh, that's ok. But, what of course, my first job was to make cheese. That was ... part of my responsibility. Had to work in the plant, had to do teaching, had to do research, and some extension work. So, I was split several ways, and my salary was split that way. What kind of products and cheeses were they making when you first got here? They were making cheddar cheese, which is the basic, and the Edam cheese. The Edam cheese, they had been doing that since, well, after 1938, and that's when it all started was in 1938. Can you tell me the history of the Edam cheese? Or the history that you know of the Edam cheese. It's a fascinating story. Well, it is. Of course, Mississippi State, over the years, Professor [F. H.] Herzer was the coach of the dairy products judging team, and so each year they would go to the national contest and compete. In 1938, at that meeting, and that year Mississippi State did very well in judging dairy products. And, at that meeting Professor Herzer asked his former professor what he could do at Mississippi State University to bring honor to the university like ... the football team does. And, his professor said," ou make the best Y Edam cheese possible. Well, Prof did not know what that really "

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meant, but his Professor told him who to get in contact with. He made those contacts in Holland, and he obtained ten of the deep wood molds, and those molds were shipped out of East Holland. That is town where the molds were made, by the Waudstra Brothers and they shipped those out just before the ports were closed there for World War II, and they got here in due time. So, when I came in 52, why, they were there. There were ten molds, and when I got there, I could only find nine. Whatever happened to that other mold, I never did know. But, anyway, and the formula was set up that way so that there was a little different because they had a little problem and whether or not we remember that most of the cows in Oktibbeha County were Jerseys because of Montgomery's that story. But, anyway, and in Holland, most of ... the cows were Holsteins. So, that was set up so, you don't get as ... much cheese out of Holstein milk as you do out of Jersey milk. So, we had a little bit of a problem there, but we had a little gouda we called it, a little extra mold. I never did find out where that mold came from, that form, but I think it was also from the Waudstra Brothers. But, anyway we used that for the extra cheese. So, we could make a normal amount of cheese plus that little mold extra. And that was always a good thing to have. Because you don't want to throw anything away, and you may or may not know how conservative Professor Herzer was, but he was rather conservative. He did not want to waste anything. But, anyway that's the story of the... SM: JC: So, in the mold, how much Edam cheese could you make? We could make, we could make, the formula was set up so we would make nine of three pounds balls. That was what we would make. And, then we had that gouda, which was extra. Today, how many Edam cheeses can they make? You know with the present operation, gosh, we are looking at for example at Christmas time; we are looking at about 50,000 of the Edams that would be available for Christmas this year. And, how long does the Edam have to age? We like for them to be six months old, but we always have one of the Edams out of each batch that we set aside as a sample. And so we check that organoleptically, we taste of it. We look at to see if it is good. That sort of thing.

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So, by now in July, they have already finished everything probably for Christmas. Yes. Uh huh. And, we can we did learn how to force cure. So, we ... can force cure it. And, we also learned how to retard the flavor development. Simply, by fluctuating the temperature at which we store the cheese. Do you know how many other places in the United States make Edam cheese? As far as I know, we are the only school. Now there are companies that do make it. As far as I know, we are the only one that makes the Edam the school makes the Edam. ... You made reference to the story of Montgomery and the bringing of the Jersey cows. I have heard that before, but can I hear your version of that story? Uh, oh. Cause I heard it was Guernsey, and not Jersey, but that was probably was from someone that does not know their cows. I think it was Jersey, because Montgomery was--had connections on the Isle of Jersey, and he made some calls. He and Bully Moore, now that's another person that was very significant in so far as the dairy industry is concerned. But, Montgomery had the connection. He was a politician. He belonged to the Grange and that type of thing. He was the man that got Mississippi State moved from Oxford to Starkville, because of his political connections, and he had the land and the Montgomery property. The story of the underground dairy Im not sure if that is what you ...' made reference to or not. Well, you can tell me anything you'd like because I have never heard about the underground dairy. Well, you know where Osborn is? Osborn Mississippi? Well, some people know where Osborn is. Anyway, its out in the county and if you go to you are probably too young to know that there was ... a drive in theater down off of 82. Down ... Near Clayton Village.

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You turn to the left and go up the road across the railroad track, and another about a mile further down that same road, you will come to a T. If you turn to your left, you would go into Osborn. So, in that general area is where the underground dairy was. Now, for a long time I thought that was where they milked the cows, but I found out later, no, that is not . let me back up. In the summer ... time in Mississippi, the temperature gets up pretty high, and it is very difficult to churn cream into butter because of the temperature. So, he dug these two big holes in the ground, went down, and that was cool down in the ground. So, there is a young black woman, I say young, at that time she was a child, and she remembers going down with her mother climbing down into that ... underground dairy, while her mother worked in churning the cream into butter. So, she is still alive, I have not interviewed her, but I want to do that. But, that's the story of the underground dairy and Montgomery. But, anyway he was very influential, and having the land and that type of thing. And, he and Bully Moore, of course, uh, Professor Moore was responsible for the cooperative creamery. And, you know that building that is about to fall apart, well, it won't fall, it's made too solid it will never fall down. But, anyway ... It doesn't have a roof though. Right, it doesn't have a roof. But, that is another story. He was head of the dairy department, and he was very influential. He loved the cows. That is one reason why we have the Jersey cows; they were smaller, they did not need as much feed for them for maintenance of the body and so forth as the Holsteins do. But, anyway, the milk that they produced and at that time, I think we ... have to remember that the main thing was butter. Everybody had ... they knew how to separate the milk into cream and skim milk. And, many of the farmers in the early days also raised swine or hogs. So, the skim milk they would separate the cream from and ... ... the skim milk would go to the hogs, and they would take the cream and churn it into butter. That was quite prevalent in Oktibbeha County. Nearly every farmer and so forth had cows and they did produce cream. They shipped the cream to the creamery, and the creamery made it into butter, and that butter went all over the country. They won a lot of prizes for the quality of their butter. So, when you got here in 1952, were still the majority of dairies in Oktibbeha County Jerseys? Jerseys, yes. That was the dominant breed. The farmers did not particularly care for the Holsteins because cause they ate too much. In other words, they had to grow a lot more feed for . ...

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Butterfat content wasn't it . ... Butterfat content was high and that was cream, yes, and that was where the money was coming from. So, where .when you were making cheese, where did you all get ... the milk for the cheese? From the dairy. From the Mississippi State dairy. Dairy cows. You know where the coliseum is today? Uh huh. Ok, I have a picture of that area which I use, I do tours and so forth, and I tell them that is where the coliseum is today is on that hill. The picture shows these cows all over that area. And, that was before the girls came to Mississippi State. So, they produced enough milk from that herd to produce the cheese, and then . ... Right. The milk from the herd, well, went to the dairy plant. So, we are talking about 1939, somewhere in that time period. A building was built what we called the DP. That's where the flower ... shop is on campus today. And, it was in the back of that building was where I started. And, the front of it was I don't know whether ... you know Rocky Felker? or not, but he was a football player, and he is now a coach here at Mississippi State. And, he lived next door to me, but is beside the point. He spent some time well, that ... was the gathering place so that they could replay the football games and so forth, in the front of the DP. Mrs. Harrison was the manager of that Mrs. Harrison, her husband was the manager of ... the cafeteria. She was the manager of the State Fountain we called it, which was the front part of the Dairy Plant. So, there was a lot of reminiscing and a lot of fun, I guess you would say, that went on in the front of the DP there over the years. But, anyway, that is where I started to making cheese was behind that State Fountain area there. Now, it is a radio station I think, or part of a radio station, and a bookstore or something. That is fascinating. You were right next to the cafeteria, so you could supply easily. Oh yes. The back doors sort of came up to each other. And, they were in glass bottles then, instead of paper.

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I have a Mississippi State glass bottle. Do you? Yeah. I got it at an antiques store. I was going to give it to my dad, but then decided I was going to keep it. Yeah, well, anyway, the glass bottle. Some of them would crack and break, that type of thing. That became a collector's item, as you well know. I paid $13.00 for it. Holy mackerel! (Laughter) Those ten-cent bottles went to . ... Do you have some sitting around your house? Oh yeah. See, you have a fortune right there. (laughs) Now, you developed the Pepper Jack cheese? Is that right? Yes. We had a problem in storage and in the coolers there in the DP. Some of the . and in the process of making the cheese and then ... wrapping it, and then pressing it, and the wrapping it, and that type of thing sometimes the wrapper would not get sealed well, and there would be mold growing on the cheese. Now, I like cheese, and a lot of Mississippi State alumni like cheese, but the mold likes it a lot better. So, they will get in and. So, we had surplus cheese, ... cheese that we would not sell. So, what we would do, would take that cheese, and sometimes the cheese would produce an off flavor. Being an organoleptologist we always graded the cheese before we released it for sale. And, the rejects, primarily. We would take that, the rejects, instead of throwing them away, we would accumulate them, and they would then mix that with the good cheese, and some of it would develop an off flavor, like bitter. That is a typical off flavor in cheese, its bitterness. So, we would take the off-flavored cheese, and the fresh good cheese, and the off-flavored cheese would also have a high acid it would be sharp. ... We would blend that together and then we would add jalapeno peppers to it, and we would add jalapeno pepper to it, and then repasturize that and put it into forms. Then, when you got a bite of

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that pepper cheese, you did not know whether it would have an off flavor or not. SM: JC: That is a great way to conserve. Well, you have to realize that Prof Herzer was conservative. We did not waste too many thing. The other person that was involved in, highly involved in that was a very good friend of mine, Ed Custer. And Ed was the plant manager when I came. I was in teaching, and he also taught one or two classes in addition to managing the plant. The processing of the milk and the bottling and the getting it to the different outlet, that type of thing. He was very good. We called him a dairy engineer Jack-of-all-Trades. -- That type of thing. Did you all deliver milk to the Starkville community? No So, the bottles were just used here on campus. Yes, Yes. You have kept mentioning a word that I can't pronounce-organatolists? Organaleptic Organaleptic Do you know what that means? No, but I would like you to tell me about it. Well, we have the five senses, you know. We have the taste, the smell, the touch or the feel, that type of thing, and the sight. So, we look at the cheese, we smell of the cheese, we work it up for the body and texture. There is a technique we use to determine the body and texture because we don't want the cheese to be pasty, or that type of thing. We work that up and then we taste of it to see whether or not it is bitter, and that type of thing. Ok, now any off grade, we would not let anything leave the plant. We are talking primarily about Edams, but we also did cheddar, and we also did the pepper cheese or the processed cheese. So, the cheese that we would accumulate if and we did not have a lot of this, but it would ... take us some time to accumulate the off-flavored cheese. When

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we got a batch ready, then we would mix the off-flavored cheese with the good cheese, and we would add the peppers to it, and then we would repasteurize that and put it in the forms and and would be . and if you would get Velveeta and that type of thing of thing ... you know. Ok, its that type of cheese with the peppers in it, and that type of thing. So, the peppers then would cover any bitterness that might be in the cheese. SM: JC: SM: JC: How did you get your training to be an . the"O word? ... " (laughter) How did I get my training in that? Oh gosh ... Was that part of your schooling? Yes. Yes. Uh huh. And also I was a USDA inspector and grader in after hours and Holidays and that type of thing. So, during those early days when there was a lot of milk and the creamery was operating, and that type of thing, there would be butter, and then there would be a cheese plant at about every crossroads. You know, Brooksville, and that type of thing ok, would be a cheese plant. Now, nearly every farm would have cows and the cows would produce more milk than what they used at home, so they would accumulate that and put it in the ten gallon can, take that to the road, and put it on the thing. Then the trucks would come ... whether it be Pet Milk Company, whether it be Kraft or whatever. But, anyway they would take it to a processing plant. So, that was all over the county, and there were a lot of small farms at that time. I think that's that's where the processed cheese then would go .well, ... ... as a USDA grader, I would grade for the government. And, the government then, would buy the cheese from the plants and they would accumulate it and they would take it to a processed cheese plant. A big plant that handled only the processed cheese the smaller plants would make from the milk, and the farmers would . ... you know there would be the milk routes and they would go on the routes in the county and accumulate the milk in ten gallon can that ... type of thing. Course that is the story that usually tell relative to ... and if you have every . In that period of time if you go down ... Highway 12 or any of the roads, you would see these little stands on the side of the road and there would be two or three cans on that. Then these trucks would come from Pet or Kraft or wherever and they would come bythat stand was built up so that it would be ... level with the bed of the truck, and so and there would be a man in ... the back of the truck, the driver, and so they would coordinate from the driver and the man in the back. The driver would drive by that side bench out there. The man in the back of the truck

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would hold one hand there and reach and grab the ear of the can and bring it inside. SM: JC: Strong arms. Strong arms. Well, now young men you know these young boys ... ... they got the big idea that we will see what happened if we put sand in one of those ten gallon cans and see what happens when he goes ... by. Because the truck driver, he would just slow down, he would not stop. Well, of course you know what happened. When he tried to bring that ten gallon can of sand in, it did not come, and he went out. But, anyway that was the fun that the boys would have. But, ... that was the thing. Kraft had cheese plants, you know at Brooksville, this was the closest one, I guess, to Mississippi State ... as far as making cheese was concerned. Wow. You mentioned that you give a lot of tours of the plant. Can you tell me what kind of things you talked about on your tours? I talk about thirty-five minutes, and what I say in that thirty-five minutes varies from day to day. But, basically we talk about the making of cheese, and how we make the cheese. We go through he process of how we make the Edam cheese. I have a set of slides that demonstrates that. We also talk about the cow, and there is a lot of people, a lot of youngsters I had a group yesterday and uh, it's ... ... amazing how many how few youngsters that have ever touched a ... cow. There a lot of more mature individuals that have never milked a cow. But, I usually do that. I usually teach them how dairymen shake hands, and they have a particular way of shaking hands, where one dairyman knows the other one, and that type of thing. And how's that? Well, you want to know that? If we had a videotape, it would be a lot better. But, put your hands together like that. OK Turn your thumbs down toward and you shake hands like . ... ... AHHHHH, I see, I have never seen my father do that. (laughter) That's the dairyman's handshake. And I use that, and the kids enjoy that.

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I bet they do. What um.. what kinds of people do you give the tours to? Who is learning about what we do here at Mississippi State? Uh, what kind? Are these a lot of school kids? International visitors? Or is it just a huge variety? It's a huge variety. And, I love the retired folks. A lot of the retired people. They probably remember ... Oh, they do, and a lot of them have milked a cow. Youngsters, no. They touched one one time. Or they had a demonstration, and they saw the cow. But, the older people or the retirees, and they pretty well I can relate to them very well. The youngsters, I have to work ... on that. But, I bet they think it is pretty neat. Do you give them a taste at the end of the tour? At the end of the tour, they go to the retail outlet. We don't we, we ... ... I do not serve cheese. But, that is the business of the retail outlet. They have to go through another department in the area there. Gloria Reed, of course, for years, she was my right hand person. She took care of the retail outlet. Of course now, she is retired now. But, they have people out there that handle the retail part. So, there is ...it is all part of the department as far as Food Science a and Technology is concerned. But, as far as dairy is concerned, we have the plant operation and the retail outlet. They are separate bookkeeping. There is a separate bookkeeping. But, now the big warehouse being built back there now. I don't know if you know about that or not. I saw a sign out there. Yeah, ok. Well, that will be the aging room. You know cheese its ... just like people, its gets better with age. I'm getting pretty good. (laughter) But, anyway. So, we age the cheese before it is released for sale. And, we sample it. There will be . those balls of cheese. We will ... have for making a batch and then we will have many of those three

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pounds balls called a sample. We will plug that for composition, and then we will taste of it. Then we will plug that and put a plug back in the hole that we used, and put that with the rest of the batch of cheese. Then, we will follow the development of flavor in that sample of cheese. SM: JC: How frequent do you make a batch? Well, you know a cow. You know about a cow. She gives milk ... you milk her at night and then you milk her in the morning. And, she does not have Sundays off or anything. Yeah, I know about that. No vacations. You know about that. No vacations. Well, the same way with the plant except we do have storage tanks. We have storage facilities, so we can hold the milk then, over the weekend. So, we are off or the boys are off over the weekend. But, they operate pretty well every day. And, they will make now, they are making two vats a ... day of Edams. And, how many three-pound balls come out of the vat? Well, a little bit of that varies. Yeah, and uh, lets see I can't give ... you a number. Well, is it a lot or a little? We are making a lot more than the original ten right? Oh yes. We had when we started we could make about fifty ... gallons of milk. And, now we can make 5,000 pounds of milk in the vats and we have two vats, or they do have two vats that they use. And, we will make whatever the milk produced at the DRC, the Dairy Research Center out at Oktoc. Ok, the milk produced there then comes into the plant and that milk is used for making the cheese, for making the ice cream, putting it into the container for retail outlet, that type of thing. The retail outlet all goes through the DP, we call it, store. Now, did you have anything to do with the ice cream or were they already making that when you got here? Or were you a cheese man? (laughs) Well, no. My background covers all the dairy products. And, so ice cream. I like ice cream.

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I do too. Were they already making the ice cream when you got here? Oh, yes. Yes. I like the muscadine. Muscadine Ripple or the Muscadine, yeah. And, that of course, is another story relative to the muscadines. And, uh, but, we got involved in that several years ago when the nephew if you know, ... what's that called over across the highway? Over there? The wine place? Yeah, they call it the wine place yeah, uh huh. Well, anyway, there is a garden or a facility over there grape vineyard, and they ... grow grapes there, especially the muscadine. Muscadine grape has a peculiar flavor. Its unique I should say. The muscadine vines and so forth are over there. And, they have a processing Jimmy ... Fox is the manager of that. He is excellent. That is probably one of the only places that makes Muscadine ice cream. Uh, probably so. At least it's direct ... I think it's pretty tasty. Yeah, it has a unique flavor. It really does. It is very popular. Um, can you tell me a little bit about the Milkotaster? The Milko-tester? Yes, excuse me, the Milko-tester. Yes. I think I can tell you a little bit about it anyway. Milko-tester is an electronic machine. And, I have to back up to kindly get into it. First of all, the test for the butterfat content in the milk. We test the milk for the butterfat content. And, we use the Badcock test. A fellow by the name of S.M. Badcock at the University of Wisconsin in 1890 developed a method for determining that fat content in milk and its called the Badcock test. Which involved adding sulfuric acid to the milk to digest the solids, not fat, leaving the fat free to rise. And, developed a particular bottle with a long neck with a long neck and bottle in there so you could put the milk ...

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in and the sulfuric acid in and mix it up, and it would digest and leave the fat free to rise. Add water to it and the fat comes up into the graduated part of the neck and you can measure to see how much fat. So, from individual cows that are on DHIA, and that type of thing. SM: JC: That's Dairy Herd Improvement Association. That's right. That's right. OK. Now in the early days the Babcock test was used. Now, we have there are different methods of doing ... that. So, what you are talking about here, the Milko-tester is an electronic machine that will test the fat well, it will test the ... composition of the milk, that you don't go through the sulfuric acid and that type of thing. So, it's an electronic method. It's a lot faster. You can do a lot more samples that type of thing with that machine. And, I did work in the early development of that. I did go to Europe, and work with the developers on that. I got very well acquainted with those people. Where did you go in Europe? Well, we went to we went all over. For example, Holland, we ... went to Holland. Of course, that East Holland, that is a different ... story as far as the Badcock test is concerned. I mean as far as the Milko-tester is concerned. That was in Denmark. So, I went to Denmark and worked with the developers of this particular machine. And, to develop that. Of course, my background was the Badcock test, so we worked together. With that experience, and the development of that machine, not only to determine the fat content, but also to determine the solids not fat, the other components in the milk. Which was an electronic machine, which had to do with I don't know whether you anyway, the fat in milk is ... ... in globular form, ok. Now, if you let it set, its going to rise those ... globules are large, ok. A protein in milk is in an emulsion and it's equally distributed. Now, if you change the Ph for example in the ... casein. Milk has casein, which is a protein. That is in various much smaller particles. So, you have to separate that out. ... Well, there is a procedure for doing that chemically. But, also with this machine then that was developed in Denmark, uh, we could do the total analysis of the milk using the electronic machine. And, there a lot of details in that. Do you.. did a lot of people adopt this electronic or do people still using that Badcock test?

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Oh yes. Well, there are people that still use the Badcock test especially for fat because that is traditional. But, for commercial work, they use the Milko-tester, or some and that has gone on, and ... they have always they have continued to improve that. So that ... they get not just the fat, but they can get the components. They can get the chemicals. You know the calcium, and that type of thing. Yeah. So, that's . and they will continue to improve that and ... get it faster. And, uh, and get it to where they can determine what percentage of the different components in the milk that they can blend together to make whatever products they want ice cream mix, -- or whatever. As far as dairy products. Do they use an electronic tester here on campus? On campus? They still using the Badcock test. Traditional. They don't change too fast. But, they do have a Milko-tester. I saw to that before I retired, and they do have the machinery. How, um you were at the university for some time, and originally ... you were in the dairy products, and eventually this became Food Science and Technology. Can you give a little bit of the history there? And how it became its own separate department. What does Food Science and Technology Department do? Oh gosh. They do a bunch. That's a wide open. But, anything that is related to food. Uh, you know to start with there was just dairy foods. That is not true anymore, and so they experiment with that. They have a section relative to the making of all different kinds of foods. So, its not just dairy foods. And, they have a and I happen ... to be one of the tasters. They come up with some of the darndest concoctions you ever saw. But, if you have your taste buds, and if you concentrate, and if you know what you are doing . In other ... words, the researchers will be on a particular project, and they are working at a particular whatever it might be, if they are trying to develop something, they want a particular flavor in there. Then, you as a taster, you can detect that flavor, and its just a matter of concentrating and having the . this is what it's supposed to taste like. ... Then, here is your sample. So, ok, that cues you in organaleptically and then you taste of this to see if it is there or ... how strong it is. And, it is and you can tell mild, medium, strong. ... You don't have to do that overnight.

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Can you give me an example of some of these strange concoctions that they came up with over there? (laughs) Not really. Some of, some of the different things. Is it they do all kinds of things, not just dairy based. That's right, its Food Science now, and they do all kinds of things. That's right. Uh, right now I can't think of any specifically. They are working on something all the time. Uh, of course, if you blend the cheese with peppers and that type of thing, they will be doing the organaleptic work on that. If they are making a fluid product like a juice or something like that, so that they will have the different flavor, the organaleptologist is able to detect the differences, which is important to the researcher. Because, if you don't have someone that can detect the differences, then, you can't do what you need to do as far as the basic research is concerned. So, to change the formula. So, you change the formula, and you take it back to the organaleptologist to see whether or not they can detect the differences and so forth. How many organalepti ,I'm not going to be able to say that ... word organaleptologists do they have here on campus? ... How many of those? Are there a number of different tasters? Mostly, what they will do is they will use the students primarily for those. And the students have been trained, you see, through the tasting course. There is a course that is primarily ... I'd like to take that. Although I think it would bewhen you eat ... normal food, do you find yourself thinking about the tastes? I used to more than I do now. Now I just eat it. Well, but I can immediately, you know, if it's rancid, I'll know it. And, whatever it is, and so some of the dominant off-flavors you don't forget those, and when that comes in, those wheels begin to roll, and you know exactly what it is. But, basically if you run a consumer preference test, well, what do consumers prefer. I like the trained organaleptologists to tell me what is in that product. Consumers, they are a dime a dozen. And, they all have their different .Oh, I ... like that Well, why do you like that? Oh, I just like it. You know. ... You don't get too much out of them. Consumer preference. Do

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you like this one better than you do that one, you know that type of thing. And, that has its merit because if you get enough numbers, ... then you can crunch those numbers and come out with a reasonable conclusion. So, you can change the form. And, that is what the researchers do. Some of them. SM: JC: So, um, the department. Is it a large department? Does it have a lot of students? I know it has a PhD program. Yes, Yes. Yes, we have got that going several years ago. As far as the PhD program is concerned. [end of side one] Go ahead. I don't know where I was. Food Science. We were talking about the PhD program. And, the combining of two departments. Yes, they had a Food Science Department, and had the Dairy Manufacturing we called it, yes. And, they combined that when they built the Herzer Building. Then, that included both. And, Dr. Ammermanand he was a food scientist. Course I was more in ... dairy back in the formative days of that. Actually, that was going on before I got here with Herzer. He was of course and you have to ... ... understand that you use all your senses in evaluating dairy products. So, Dr. White is the head of the Food Sciences and Technology now. He was trained one of my good students when ... he came through. That's always good to know. Yeah, and he had a good set of taste buds. But, anyway. And, he is coach of the dairy products judging team. And, when I do my tours, I tell them we don't back up to anybody as far as our ability to judge dairy products and all dairy products. We are talking about cottage cheese, butter, you know, cheese, and that type of thing. Who sponsors the dairy products judging? International Dairy Show and that's an international show, and its primarily the commercial people the money behind it if that is what ... you mean, but yeah.

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And, where does it take place? It takes place in Chicago. It will vary, but it usually is in Chicago. Who are the other good schools at that? Most of your land grant colleges. And, if they have a dairy or food science program Wisconsin. ... Minnesota, those areas up there? Maybe Penn State? Yes, oh yes. Most of the land grant colleges, as I say, over the country, yeah. And, they compete. And, as I say, we don't back up to anybody relative to that worldwide, not just the United States. ... So, there is a national Imean an international ... ... There is a national and international. International Dairy Products Judging Contest. So, they come from anybody over the world that ... has a team and they want to come and compete. Where .do the students ... ... Usually Chicago is where they go. The students in Food Science and Technology, where do they find employment? Do they go into industry? Yes. Well, when you say industry, yes. Some of them will go into inspection work with the health department and that type of thing. Many of our students are major they have major positions in the ... food science area. Charlotte O'Shannon is one with USDA in Washington D.C., and she is one of my students. And, I also taught her daddy, so but anyway. Yes, but anyway they are all over ... the country, and there are for example, Kraft Foods, you know ... about Kraft Foods, and they make cheese. Uh huh, they do. My family dairy farms a lot of the milk goods to Kraft because ... And, Pet Milk Company. Cosesco (?), yeah. About our time is almost up. But, I would like to tell me ... ... Well, we had better do something to all this work I did to get these ... questions.

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Well, is there something specific you would like to tell me about? Not really, I don't think. I just went through and did all these things. I have enjoyed talking to you. Well, it helps me know what to ask you about your past, and it will go along with the tapes so that someone will know more about you, but I would like you to tell the story that you have told me about Bully Moore because at Mississippi State, the word Bully means a lot. And, I enjoy that story. Well, he was the founder. He was the man that started the creamery, you know. Well, of course, he was employed by Mississippi State University. And, I think I mentioned to you that I was trying to find out how you got his name. That is the story that I was referring to. Oh, ok, well. But, you can tell me anything you want to about Bully Moore. Bully Moore was quite an organizer, and he taught the dairy course. He was a cowman. When he would teach how he got his ... name Bully, I think maybe I mentioned to you I tried to find out how he got that name. Well, I did find out that when he would lecture to his students, he had a mock-up of a bull calf and he would stand up with his hand on the head of that bull calf and lecture to the students. So, that's where he got the phrase Bully Moore. And, was he head of the Dairy Science Department? He was the Dairy Science Department, right. And, there were other early workers in that department, but he was the head of it. And, he was a tremendous . his work ethics were something ... amazing. He rode horseback most of the time for many years in the early stages. So, we date back to 1912. 1912 is the date that the cooperative creamery was formed, and Bully Moore was very much involved in the formation of the cooperative creamery. Which they got the coop. I don't know whether you know where ... the Middleton Building is? You know the ROTC Building with the gun out in front of it? That building was the Dairy Building. In the ground floor of that was where they made the butter and so forth. And then, they also processed the milk, and bottled it and so forth. Now, back behind it there is a parking lot, you know. In

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that parking lot then and they were in glass bottles. Now, when ... they break a bottle, what did they do with the glass? They dumped it over the hill there. And, sometimes when they some of them that ... were not too bad but anyway I have a friend that used to go out ... there this is before the lot was built. But anyway, she would go out ... and dig for bottles, milk bottles. So, the MSU Dairy was started in that Middleton Building. I always refer to it as ROTC Building. But, that is the location. Now, from there then that was before, you see, they went over to the ATP and 1912 is the date that the cooperative creamery was formed in the state. Then, in 1938 was the date that the creamery was built and at that time the cooperative creamery had enough money to pay cash for the building of that building. So, the coop and they are people in this ... county who are very very much the families of those people were ... involved in the formation of the cooperative creamery. Uh, and that did a lot for Starkville and Oktibbeha county. I don't know you ... probably don't know about Pyron's? Creamery? You know where if you go from Starkville downtown Starkville, and when you get off the campus over the overpass? And, then on the left-hand side you go if you are going to town, the left-hand side. There is a building, ... and there is a washateria. You know that building? That was Tim Pyron? That was his business, and was called the creamery there. ... SM: JC: SM: JC: It has that look about it doesn't it. So, what did they do there? Well, they pasteurized milk and they delivered milk over Starkville. So, there were two creameries? Now, the cooperative creamery was not in the fluid milk business. But, Tim what I was going to say was a fellow by the name of D.M. ... Smith and Tim Pyron were students. The cooperative creamery would use students in the dairy to work in the creamery. So, Tim uh Mr. Pyron was now he had a son by the name of Tim. But, ... ... anyway Mr. Pyron, and Mr. Smith were two of the students and there were other students, I don't mean to leave out anybody. There were other students that worked in the creamery. A lot of the dairy students, especially in the processing area, worked in the creamery. And, anyway, Pyron then built that facility and had grade A milk. And, he did the pasteurizing and that type of thing. They delivered milk over the town and over the campus. Mr. Smith, who was a friend of mine, he sort of took me under his wing anyway. I consulted with him in my off time, when I did not have anything else to do. Anyway, he went into the cheese business. And, so he developed a tremendous cheese business in Tennessee and

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Kentucky and in through there. But, those two got their start in the cooperative creamery as students. SM: So, the cooperative creamery supplies butter, and their creamery right there on University was the fluid milk for the town of Starkville? Pyron's you are talking about? Yes did right. That was fluid milk processing, yes. Do you remember when that closed? Not just off hand. I know Will Allen, and that's a name he worked ... there. This is a friend of mine that I know, and I would have to give him a call ... But, it was still open when you got here. Oh, yeah. You know Judge McDavid? You know Judge McDavid? I don't know a whole lot of people do I? You don't know a whole lot of people in Starkville. I have only been here three and one-half years. I can't know them all. I'm still a newby. But, anyway. He delivered milk and he worked for Pyron's. Mrs. Pyron was a schoolteacher, and she taught school. My wife taught with her in the public schools here in Starkville, but that is another story. You got lots of other stories. I do have yeah. Um, you mentioned earlier that you did some work with extension. Did you work with other creameries or did you work with the farmers? What kind of work did you do primarily? Primarily with the plants. Now, and yes, I had a three-way appointment. Actually, I had a four-way appointment. Boy, you were busy (laughter). I don't know how you had any of that free time.

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Well, momma said that kept me out of meanness. So, I guess that is right. But, anyway, I was a USDA inspector and grader on dairy products. So, when the plants of course, you have to remember that ... there were cheese plants at Brooksville. You know just about ever town of any size had a cheese plant or they had some kind of a milk processing plant. Like Pet Milk Company, that type of thing. So, I would grade after hours, holidays that type of thing, ... weekends. I had a USDA appointment, and you probably know something about the commodities. You know the commodities ok, ... now for a plant, like Kraft, and like the plant in Brooksville, and the plant in Macon; those were and in Okolona, there were cheese ... plants in these towns. Ok, so I would go to those cheese plants and inspect the plants for USDA and they would make the cheese, or whatever it was, but primarily cheese. They would make that for, and sell it to, the government. So, this was commodities. And, you remember the commodities, and people that were on commodities, that type of thing. They could get the cheese and so forth. Well, somebody had to make that. Well, these plants did that. Well, my job was to buy for the government that cheese. I would go and do it organaleptically. I would check the cheese there ... would be a sample the cheese would be made in big vats and they ... would pour one cheese out of that big vat, and that would be the sample. It would be identified, and I could go into the coolers and pick that sample, bring it out, and I would use that, and I would sample it check it organaleptically. I would look at it, feel of it, ... tastes of it, smell of it, and that type of thing. Then I would either buy it for the government, that is, I would accept it or I would reject it. And, if the cheese was bitter for example, then it would a reject. Now, we did not throw away the rejects. What we did was we tha... e company would take that cheese and convert it to ... t th processed cheese. So, now that gets us to the pepper cheese you see. So, the rejects then, would go into such things as the processed -- cheese, Velveeta, that type of thing, and the pepper cheese. What types of cheese were these plants making? Cheddar. So, cheddar was the primary. That's the basic cheddar was the basic one. That is right. And, of ... the cheese plants. That's what it was. I did travel a good bit in that capacity going to the pretty well all over the state. And, then I ... would up into Kentucky and to Tennessee, and that type of thing on weekends and so forth. So ...

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So, the majority of these plants here in Mississippi would make cheddar. Is that because it was is it an easier cheese to make or is ... that just the standard cheese? That was the standard. That was the basic cheese, right. And, there was a cheese plant just about at every crossroad. I would go to Houston. You know where Houston is? Drive over to Houston, and what they would do or what the plant would do I would go in ... and inspect the plant relative to the quality of the sanitation, that type of thing. And, then when they got a load, a boxcar load of cheese produced, I would then go in and grade for the government, and anything that would not meet the standard, if it was bitter, that type of thing, then I would reject that. The rejects then, would go to the processing plant. Then they would make the processed cheese like the pepper cheese. Did the majority of the people that were running these plants, had they gotten their training at Mississippi State or through your extension programs, or ? ... Yes, most of the managers, but not the workers. The workers would be local people living in the community. But, yes, the plant managers most all of them were graduates of Mississippi State. So, there were lots of dairy processors from state all throughout ... All throughout the country. Yeah. You can goKraft loved ... Mississippi State students. Do they still love Mississippi State students? Yes, yeah. We don't have as many as we did at one time, but yes. And, there is not that many plants. The plants get bigger and they get more automated, and so forth. So, that the expertise of students is more in the microbiology, the chemistry, that type of thing now. And, you know, automation .but we, we meaning Mississippi State ... University, is still well represented in the cheese industry in especially Kraft. ... Well, Kraft is a big cheese maker. Yeah, they just kept growing. Well, I think we all love cheese. An important food. I think that it is pretty neat that they make it right here on campus too. It is.

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And, you can buy it. I have to take it home with me every time I go. And, of course, in a commercial plant, you know, they are making it everyday. That's numbers. As in an educational institution, that's teaching research, and service. But, teaching and research is a little different than a commercial operation. And, we don't watch ... we didn't watch the.. well, we would do a time and motion study for a particular operation. That type of thing we did. Do a lot of students today work in the cheese plant? Not a lot. Is it mostly full-time employees? Most all of the employees in the plant are former graduates, that type of thing, the manager for example. Yep. David Hall is there the manager of the plant now. He was one of my students, and his daddy was. So ... You had a lot of family, a two generations (laughter) teacher. Yeah, oh yeah, that's right. But, anyway we don't have as many of the students because they got to got to class. When you start making cheese, you know, the bacteria don't know to stop and wait for you to get out of class. They are kind of like cows that still have to be milked even though it is Christmas Day. Well, a little bit different than that because we have storage tanks now, and we can store the milk over so our weekends are in the ... plant, as is the cow milk. The cows have not been trained to turn it off on Friday night. I know. I don't if science will ever get to that point. Do what? I don't think that science is ever going to be able to do that. Oh, to turn the cow off? Naw. I don't know if we can make them five days a week.

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(laughs) well, that might be challenge to some young scientist. Yeah, some geneticist is out there working on the ... Yeah, he might work on that. Is there anything else specific that you would like to ... I don't know. I went over this and I did not know whether we were going to over this or not. You mentioned about suggesting a couple of people that you might could see. And, I suggested, and I have not contacted these people. Hunter Andrews would be one that would be good, and the other would be Vernon Hammond. They would good I think to visit with. Well, I want to thank you, and uh it was great it was a very Ilearned ... ... ... a lot. (laughs) well, ...tape ends] I[

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